Posts by Van Gogh

I have been in the organization all my life and have certainly met many, many great and sincere people/Christians. Most of the members do retain a great amount of innate decency and common sense. Most members will trail along content and happy for years, and will be able to build their lives around this system, like people will around any human social system. But when things (people/families) fall out of line - fall into disgrace - start asking awkward questions - that is when people start to get hurt big time.

The organization isn't called the bOrg for nothing. The machine has left a trail of destruction and has destroyed many lives under the banner of love and truth. Unsuspecting weak ones who feel themselves protected by it, from time to time turn out to be ill prepared for its ugly consequences. They are the victims of it. They often tend to disappear out of sight as well and are shamed. "Spiritually weak ones are thus sifted".

A simple and verifiable example might well be the Malawi account from Ray Franz's Crisis of Conscience: many poor Africans were beaten, killed and raped as the "collateral damage" of a machine, yet this was considered to be a fair and reasonable price to pay - the account is liable to make you want to vomit. Yet the decisions involved were made by respected man in a calm and composed manner, with an outward appearance of moral authority.

It also reminds me of mechanisms observed in Nazi Germany. The famous philosopher Hannah Arendt wrote about these workings of evil and the paradoxes involved. Daniel Jonah Goldhagen also wrote about it in his "Hitler's Willing Executioners": How could German citizens of what could before 1870 be described as merely a "Kulturnation" - a nation unified only by culture - be party to such despicable consequences. During the Second World War, before the end of 1944, Bavarians lived decent, happy, loving, and proper village family lives. The Dutch people were opposed to the German invaders. But in the Netherlands for example, 110.000 Jews were quietly carted off to a horrible death, yet daily life went on as usual. I do not intend to judge here - if anyone dared to oppose, they were liable to the same fate. The point I'm trying to make is that everyday life went on as usual. The outward appearance of everyday life seemed normal under the circumstances.

In no way would I want to equate the WTS with the NSDAP. But it could serve to illustrate the evil, dehumanizing and damaging potential that can result from the greater good of an organization-machine that claims moral truth.

My childhood story could probably rank quite high on the "JW horror story" index. It involved suicide, death, alienation, utter despair, institutionalization and dehumanization. Yet my dad had been a respectable Presiding Overseer and my mother had been a respectable pioneer for many years during the poverty stricken years of the fifties. I have personally experienced how they were consumed by zealously serving in a religion that was able to make them sincerely believe that they would never die, yet, it turned out they were devoured by a machine that was able to contribute to their premature deaths. I have personally experienced the mechanism of keeping things behind closed doors - of keeping things quiet. The funny thing is that I was always defending the organization despite all this, and putting the blame fully on my parents. Only recently has the house of cards come tumbling down for me - and have things consequently begun falling in place. Only when I found out that the truth turned out to be a lie (inch measurements in a pyramid tunnel to justify calculating 1914 and the end of the world...?) was it that my perspective on what transpired was turned upside down. This organization tends to mess some of us up pretty badly

38

Why would a current JW choose to be rude and offensive?

by AlmostAtheist in

jw
friends

i've recently had lengthy pm discussions with a person claiming to be a current jw.

this person has been above the standard level of arrogant for a jw, raising conceit to practically a defining characteristic.

you almost expect that when you're dealing with a member of the "elite".. but he goes beyond it.

Van Gogh

IMO, M.J. hit the nail on the head: of course it is not a Christian trait - it is a cult mentality! "Cult" and "brainwashed" sound scary, but that is exactly what we are talking about here.

I think Abaddon also made a great and simple observation here: jdubs feel "misunderstood" most of the time. They are full of suppressed anger because of it.

I always thought that ARROGANCE was (and still is) one of the main characteristics of WTS company culture. It tends to tricle down to some of the other Chosen.

32

Prostitution and Marijuana

by free2beme in

jw
friends

i feel that as a country we waste so much time and money fighting prostitution and marijuana use.

not that i think these things are something everyone should use, but the fact that we make these illegal and yet other things happen that are the same thing, or worse.

for example, in nevada, outside the city limits, it is legal for prostitution.

Van Gogh

Great to hear (ex)jdubs discussing the real world.
I'm from the Netherlands - so what is there left to say for me..?
Sex slavery/degradation of young girls/lives, together with the dangers of soft drugs to the mental health (schizofrenia) of - again - young lives, in this case mostly young guys though, however, are very worthwile considerations IMO.

5

Revealed: the pill that prevents cancer

by Elsewhere in

jw
friends

http://news.independent.co.uk/world/science_technology/article335359.ecerevealed: the pill that prevents cancer by jeremy laurance, health editor published: 28 december 2005 .

a daily dose of vitamin d could cut the risk of cancers of the breast, colon and ovary by up to a half, a 40-year review of research has found.

the evidence for the protective effect of the "sunshine vitamin" is so overwhelming that urgent action must be taken by public health authorities to boost blood levels, say cancer specialists.

Van Gogh

Sunbathing and the benefits of its vitamin D are indeed essential - just do not get sunburned - sunbathing can actually counter the effects of all sorts of cancer.

You must be aware of the dangers of overdosing on all kinds of vitamin D.

You must be aware of the dangers of synthesized vitamin D (as in pasteurized milk).

Best source of vitamin D during winter time is a good quality cod liver oil.

Cod liver oil has all the added advantages of containing essential Omega 3 fatty acids.

You must, however, also look into balancing out Omega 3 fatty acids (fishoil has no vit D while cod liver oil has) with the Omega 6 fatty acids from all vegetable/polyunsaturated oils (NOT monounsaturated oils like olive oil).

Most people get way too much omega 6 fatty acids from overdosing on Omega 6 vegetable poly-oils - even worse is the heating and frying of Omega 6 veg poly-oils or the effects of turning them into trans-fat containing hardened plant oils.

Doing some homework for yourself on this issue can IMHO be crucial for long-term health and longevity - which as such could be considered "food at the proper time" - especially considering that such longevity could not after all be provided through the spiritual diet books of the pseudo-scientific Botch Tower Society.

Personally, though I am NOT a physician, want to wholeheartedly recommend:
www.mercola.com

He has a health e-newsletter and searchable database, and among other things, you can order your cod liver oil there.

23

Doubts

by lazuli in

jw
friends

i'm an 18 year old girl, i started studying with the jws 9 months ago.

i was dating a guy that was a jw and i chose that i also wanted to study.

we were together for 2 years and broke up four months ago.

Van Gogh

Welcome to the board lazuli!

My advice? Religion and love can be a poisonous concoction.

Doubting both, however, can be very revealing - very liberating.

Emancipate yourself...Get an education... Investigate your man and your church.

Operate from an independant mindset - then take crucial life-altering decisions like committing to baptism or marriage.

Read Crisis of Conscience by Ray Franz. It'll take your mind of your sorrows - for a long time to come.

29

Hi- New here.

by sassafras in

jw
friends

hello, i've been lurking around for a few months now, finally registered a few weeks ago, and figured it was finally time to post.

first of all, let me give you a little background so you know where i'm coming from.

i'm 24, married to my soulmate, and mother to a 2 year old boy.

Van Gogh

Welcome sassefras, You've come to the right place.

Point your mouse at the post title and click on "edit" in order to change your post and format. I think you then have to check both boxes at the bottem of the message input window (or something like that).

IMHO, the trick with jdubs like your HB is to make clear that the faithful & discreet slave or GB is a false concept of which jdubs are captives. History research can be very revealing here. It was to me after 35 years. Did you know that a connection was once made between inch-measurements of a pyramid and 1914 (Studies in the Scriptures)? There is a direct relation between 1914 and 1919, which date is crucial to the special position of the GB. The myth of 607 BCE in relation to 1914 is also very compelling.

(Edit to say: I think the second comment of cheezy's message is very important)

22

When you were a JW, which would you have prefered living on earth or heaven

by JH in

jw
friends

when you were a jw and believed that either you could live in heaven or on earth eternally, which did you prefer and why?.

although we were told that heaven was a better place to live, that we would see god, and that we would live eternally and never die, i prefered living on earth, never see god, and not 100% sure of living eternally, cause we would still be mortals forever, even though we could live eternally on earth.

most jw's i know said that they would have prefered living on earth eternally in perfect health than living in heaven.

Van Gogh

G,day Oz,

So lets keep the Brooklyn boys to their own rule-books and apply the onerous bits to themselves: We can kick 'm out with them not being able to touch us (faulty logic - I know).

But seriously now, I very much appreciate your input here ozzie. Things are starting to fall into place for me much more now. IMO, the WTS sacrificed the designations of "God" and "Christian" so as to set themselves apart from the "so-called Christians" or Christians "in name only," together with the perception these others had of the concept of the God of the Bible. In doing so, they had to revert back to the OT God-concept and his supposed name, implanting it into the NT.
Paradoxically, the consequence of this is that "the great crowd" - who "cannot" be full brothers with Christ, and do not have a direct mediator in him, and are thus theoretically further removed from God - can actually BYPASS Christ altogether and are being sold the direct and immediate friendship with God that only Abraham was said to have.
I find this concept of direct "friendship with Jehovah" to be more heavily promoted in the WT lately. In one of the recent WT's they actually went so far as to portray God-Jehovah/God-the-Father as being humble. This is one of the essential qualities that Christ was supposed to display as HIS example to follow.
Furthermore, WTS (formerly known as Fred Franz) is able to bore the living daylights out of the R&F with their esoteric OT-bible-commentary-style-prophesy-exegesis of Hosea/Daniel/Isaiah etc. Consequently, the R&F are not only saddled with the depressing and incomprehensible account of mass murder and mayhem of the OT, but in the process are also deprived of identifying with the more modern Greek-style boy and girl-brothers of Christ and his upbeat message.
Somehow, not having to share a boring heaven with 144.000 religious zealots of the Brooklyn kind OR having the prospect of an eternal outdoor bear-cub & cobra patting district assembly picnic with the trimmed paradise perfection and fluorescence of virid fields and the true blues of perfect skies, ANY future prospect sounds a lot more appealing...
(I'll dig in to my earthly existence now. Just to be sure.)

31

Does it shock you that there are so few people on this board?

by free2beme in

jw
friends

i read once that the witnesses loss between 30,000-50,000 members in the united states alone each year.

i know the numbers for worldwide exits, must be even larger and times that by all the decades of people leaving and you come to a fairly nice size number.

i realize some of these decreases are deaths, losing track of correct totals or a percentage returning right back into the congregation.

Van Gogh

Please feel welcome icare4u! Theo Vincent

17

One Good Reason to Register and Post Here

by YoursChelbie in

jw
friends

whe i came across this forum at first i just read the various posts for a month or so.

deep down, i knew the real truth was not with the watchtower organization, but i couldn't pin point exactly why i felt that way, and why i had so many doubts.

then i saw something that made me want to jump right into the conversation.

Van Gogh

Funnily, not the UN-thing.
Somehow, also for me a "muddy, unclear voice calling out to me through a pane of glass," that is to say, "progressively" for most of my schizophrenic JW life.
I was always an idealistic true believer, though never a truly zealous one. Sort of a cowardly quiet sideliner from a violent and self-destructive elder family. So, I knew a too much already.
Never was trusted with more than reading the WT during the WT-study on the platform and being a mike boy.
Finally somehow got into reading M. James Penton's "Apocalypse Now" and found out about the 607/1919 fraud (Don Cameron's "Captives of a Concept"). I am forever grateful to whoever gave me this stuff. Lurked here on and off with much sympathy cause I'd grown to quietly despise everything about the bOrg for many years already. Have only started reading CoC - really only a formal "blue pill" now. Seen the BBC Panorama thing on child abuse only last week. The puzzle is complete.
This board has been crucial in my deprogramming.